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Dialogue

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Dialogue

Postby alija » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:29 am

I would like so much we develope on the forum the atmosphere of dialogue, and in order to achieve that level of communication it would be recommendable to use the correct word, too.

Instead of discussion, or debate I prefer much more the Dialogue.
What do you think?

Dialogue means trying to understand the other with an open mind. Dialogue is a rare phenomenon and it is beautiful, because both are enriched. In fact, while you talk, either it can be a discussion - a verbal fight, trying to prove that I am right and you are wrong – or a dialogue. Dialogue is taking each other´s hand, moving together towards the truth, helping each other to find the way. It is togetherness, it is a cooperation, it is a harmonious effort to find the truth. It is not in any way a fight, not at all. It is a friendship, moving together to find the truth, helping each other to find the truth. Nobody has the truth already, but when two persons start finding out, inquiring about the truth together, that is dialogue - and both are enriched. And when truth is found, it is neither of me, nor of you. When truth is found, it is greater than both of us who participated in the inquiry, it is higher than both, it surrounds both - and both are enriched.
by Osho
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Re: Dialogue

Postby alija » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:05 am

Here we have a very interesting contribution from our dear Molly Brogan:

Do you find yourself speechless because the communication around you is edgy or hostile? Do you often think of things that could have been said afterward? How do you talk to others whose only concern is their own agenda?

Dr. Marshall B. Rosenberg is founder and director of educational services for The Center for Nonviolent Communication, an international, non-profit organization, and has been developing his practices for compassionate communication since the 1960s. Nonviolent Communication (NVC) helps connect us with what is alive in ourselves and in others moment-to-moment, with what we or others could do to make life more wonderful, and with an awareness of what gets in the way of natural giving and receiving.
Whenever we become disconnected from our compassionate nature, whenever our hearts are not devoid of hatred in all of its forms, we have a tendency to act in ways that can cause pain for everyone in our lives, including ourselves.

Nonviolence, Dr. Rosenberg tells us, does not refer to the mere absence of physical harm. It is a way of life that takes its lead from a compassionate and connected heart, and can guide us toward a more complete and happy way of being. It is a practice rooted in understanding, in living honestly, and in acting empathically with all beings. It requires nonjudgmental observation, separating feeling from thought, assessing and meeting need, and making clear and concrete requests for action.

As Mahatma Gandhi said, “Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our very being.”
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Re: Dialogue

Postby Steve » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:24 pm

I agree! Debate has its place, but I don't think it serves well in seeking truth in relation to the spiritual realm. It may not even be useful in any realm since there are so much validity in every point of view that it becomes a race to see who can present the most logic, proof, and rationality in the quickest, most well articulated manor. Debate surely is a brain excersise that requires focus, concentration, and at times can be fun. Using this method to seek spiritual truths does not work since the purpose of debate is to share your single point of view and see how well it stands against the logic of others. Since I truly agree that there can be multiple viewpoints on the same topic that can all stand as part truths, debate only takes these part truths and puts them against each-other. The method of dialogue allows for the merging of part truths to form bigger pictures. It is not always bare denotative meaning of what is said, but the underlying vibe that can be taken as its true value.

For Martin Buber, the fundamental fact of human existence, too readily overlooked by scientific rationalism and abstract philosophical thought, is "man with man", a dialogue which takes place in the so-called "sphere of between" ("das Zwischenmenschliche").

The terms interfaith or interfaith dialogue refer to cooperative and positive interaction between people of different religious traditions (i.e., "faiths") and spiritual or humanistic beliefs, at both the individual and institutional level with the aim of deriving a common ground in belief through a concentration on similarities between faiths, understanding of values, and commitment to the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_dialogue)

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Re: Dialogue

Postby alija » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:46 pm

Hi Steve,

Thank you so much. This is the third, so beautiful, contemplation on the dialogue, after Osho's and Marry Brogan's.
My vocabulary and ability for the "thoughts rearrangements" are obviously not sufficient to express what I mean, and being unable to express correctly my thoughts I can at least give you a karma for this contribution.
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Re: Dialogue

Postby Gilles » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:24 pm

Hi Guys

To start off: great idea about the dialogues. I am happy to participate in trying to bring this one into reality.

I'd like to draw some attention to what I see as the main obstacle to dialogue.

I counted the word truth in this quote of Osho, and it is mentioned eight times.

Was Osho aware of this when he wrote it or not? I don't know. Either way, it illustrates the point I am trying to make, which is that humans on earth in this age are collectively obsessed with truth.

I realise it can sound a little provocative, and I realise that provoqueing fits my character, but I also really beleive this is true.

So what I would like to suggest, is that we collectively re-explore this idea of truth. What does it really mean to us? Meditate on it, talk about it with other people, be attentive to the word, maybe for a week or so, or for longer? Let's then try to re-evaluate this concept together. I will do the same.

As an exercize, maybe you can look for the paradox in this post. Don't tell anyone when you have found it. I don't know if it is hard to find or not, though I am curious about your thoughts. Maybe you want to pm me if you did? There may be more than one.

With love,

Gilles
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Re: Dialogue

Postby alija » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:57 pm

Hi boys,
This is the advantage of having the youth on the forum. I like your idea and will participate as much as I can, and I know I have very little to offer in the direction of truth, because my truth is only mine. O~

Just one observation about generally development of the dialogue on this forum, and of course, the same pattern governs on the other forums, too.
It would be great to finish one topic, say what we have about it and then open a new topic if suddenly a new idea emerges, like The Truth in this case. In that case for those who are coming to read our dialogues is much easier; topic Unconditional love is dealing with unconditional love and not already after the third post dialogues go into totally different direction. I am sure you agree with me.
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PS: Sorry for being cut of from Internet for two days. We are after 3 months back in Croatia, bills not being paied and no access.
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Dialogue

Postby Mirjana » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:03 pm

To define dialogue is one thing, but to apply it is a completely different story.
If dialogue means like in the quote of Osho, listening to another with an open mind, what can be done in the sense of applying it as a rule in forums like this?
Aside from the fact that it is mostly connected with defending a certain personal stand point or truth, it is also very much connected with a nature of a person, the way how the person responds in life toward others, the way how one is. How is it possible to influence that or even change it just by deciding to apply it here?
I also think that The Truth should be another topic, but here within this one, what we can do is to eventually find some kind of helpers in order to make it possible?


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Re: Dialogue

Postby Gilles » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:17 pm

Hi Guys

I'll rearrange this truth thing in a bit.

Another suggestion:

I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate all of our posts before sending them and look for the next thing:

It would be good if 50 % was a confirmation or a synthesis of how you understood the previous posts, and about 50 % was a reaction to this synthesis. We could even try and play with colours there, to see if what I call a synthesis is in line with what someone else calls a synthesis, and the same about the reaction.

I heard the hebrew word for "creation" is the same as the word for "separation"

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Re: Dialogue

Postby alija » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:35 pm

Gilles wrote:Hi Guys

I'll rearrange this truth thing in a bit.

Another suggestion:

I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate all of our posts before sending them and look for the next thing:

It would be good if 50 % was a confirmation or a synthesis of how you understood the previous posts, and about 50 % was a reaction to this synthesis. We could even try and play with colours there, to see if what I call a synthesis is in line with what someone else calls a synthesis, and the same about the reaction.

I heard the hebrew word for "creation" is the same as the word for "separation"

Gilles

Hi Gilles,
I am not sure I understand what do you mean by saying "to re-evaluate all our posts" and the synthesis.
The best way would be you show us here how would you re-evaluate posts in this topic or let˙s say the topic Unconditional Love-What is the Attraction?
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Dialogue

Postby Mirjana » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Gilles wrote:Hi Guys

I'll rearrange this truth thing in a bit.

...
Gilles

There has been already a topic about truth. Maybe just to continue there?

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=3377

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Re: Dialogue

Postby Gilles » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:55 pm

Guys, I lost some posts.

Any idea where thay might be?

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Re: Dialogue

Postby Gilles » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:36 am

YEs, that was in fact not the one I lost. I put that in the truth part, just by copy pasting like you did. There were two reactions to this post by Kris and Steve, which I was trying to move to the truth part under their name, but by splitting the topic, I lost them. I'll just remove mine again.


To get back at the experiment in the topic Unconditional Love

Hi Gilles,
Does this explanation fit to your analysis: Unconditional Love?
Could this description be some kind of base for the conclusion?
Namasthe
alija


I offered it as a base for dialogue. But it's not my dialogue at the moment.
It would be cool if everyone would do something similar: first show a sign of heaving listened to the previous post, and then add something new. By showing how you understood the previous post, things are clearer (this was you / this is me), but it is also easier to identify communication problems.

I don't think a dialogue should be headed towards a conclusion, because that is like all wanting to enter a very narrow hall simultaneously. Unless we want to define Unconditional love. But I think the topic should then have the word "definition" in it's name. Maybe we can have a forum called definitions? So that we can refer to the definitions of the words we use. But first debate those definitions, so that all agree, and also give new people the possibility to discuss those, or at least agree with why we chose them that way.

But how far do we want to go in organizing this platform to increase reciprokal understanding. Are we not going to scare off newcomers by makeing everything very arranged? In any case we can try and see if it works, or if we can keep up.
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Re: Dialogue

Postby Mirjana » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:49 am

All your questions, Gilles, could be mine.
I also think that is very important to show with any sign that one who answers the post(except when coming with a new topic), first give a sign that has read previous post and have something to say (anything)about that adding then if there is something new. That is one the ways to make a dialogue to flow.
Beside, how I understood this topic is more as a place where the members will come occasionally to point out positive and negative experiences that show in other topics regarding the way members communicate.
What do I mean?
If in another topic there is a situation when member/s shows such a dialogue example, then to take it and tell about it in the dialogue topic. This way in the Dialogue topic there will be true material about that what the topic is about, which is always the best example to point to the things you would like them to have.
But, there is another question; do you think that in all Ajna forum should be only dialogue as a form of communication? It would pose quite a limitation in front of member’s priori, which, I can imagine, is not a goal.

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Re: Dialogue

Postby Gilles » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:21 pm

Yes I fully agree with that.

A very good idea to observe dialogues and bring comments we have on the dialogueing itself forward in the dialogue topic.

To answer your question about if only dialogues. I'd say no: we can be poets, build up personal perspectives (yet maybe this would be good to do at the beginning of a post only), to avoid "drowning" people with information) ask questions, all that. What may be more important is to point each other to the possibility of heaving a dialogue, and have a clear description of what that means. I think listening before you speak is a good way to do that because:
- It makes dialogue flow
- Doing it is training your concentration
- Doing it is recognizing each others need to be heard, each others humanity, thus builds up confidence

Your suggestion, Mirjana, is a good one, but I also think we should not hesitate to invite the people heaving a dialogue we talk about to the dialogue forum. To make this work, we should all see it's importance, and we should all be willing to fight for it within ourselves. We should stand for it. For what we strive: spiritual dialogue, and we can clarify that to all newcomers. Then personal texts, personal perspectives and other personal things, will stand at the service of the dialogue, but maybe I'm running to far ahead in ideals again.

My point is: we should not be afraid to call each other back to the essence. Being love. Or feel attacked if this happens. Because love overcomes. And to call each other back, we can suggest techniques. But how strict those need to be, depends on the person really. Yet I generally don't think we have a lot of people here who need very strict rules. Do you? Or is that question under the belt? Maybe someone feels like he needs some rules or guidelines? Who is reading this conversation? I am pretty curious now.
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Re: Dialogue

Postby alija » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:37 pm

Mirjana wrote:But, there is another question; do you think that in all Ajna forum should be only dialogue as a form of communication? It would pose quite a limitation in front of member’s priori, which, I can imagine, is not a goal.

Mirjana

Hi Mirjana,

This forum has no goals. We are not a company which needs solutions for some projects. In that case discussion is the most efficient way of communication. Through discussion we analyse some ideas, accept or refuse and go on towards the solution, conclusion.

If, according to your opinion, dialogue can "pose quit a limitation in front of member's priori" what kind of communication do you recommend?
Discussion, debate?
Can you please explain why dialogue would "pose quit a limitation in front of member's priori"?
I am very curious to hear it.
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